Jayme Jenkins, Co-Founder of Everist: Concentrating on the Future of Hair and Beauty Products.

[00:00:01] Components like the cap, which is the only piece of plastic we couldn't get away from. So the cap is its own kind of story. We made the caps bright colors, so they're bright yellow, red, blue, to remind us to always keep improving.

[00:00:15] Welcome to the Innovation Day Podcast. I'm your host Neil Follett. And today, I'm talking to Jayme Jenkins, Co-Founder of Everist. I truly love this conversation and this episode has all the greatest hits. First off, Jayme's a great guest. She brings amazing energy and her passion for the product

[00:00:32] and running the business is evident. Next, Everist is a tremendous product. It's enjoyed amazing success and it's receiving accolades from across the industry. Finally, the problem that Jayme and her co-founder Jessica set out to solve is really multi-dimensional. There's product development and packaging and the category itself

[00:00:51] and manufacturing and sales and online. They did not pick an easy one. That is for sure. I could not be happier that Jayme set aside some time to be on the show. And on that note, let's get on with the show.

[00:01:03] Jayme, thank you for joining us this morning. You're welcome. I'm so happy to be here. Everist isn't just a product. It's a suite of products at this point. But give me the what is Everist? And then I've got a whole very long list of questions.

[00:01:20] Awesome. So happy to dive into all those questions. So Everist is, as I mentioned, Hair Wellness brand. We call it a clean beauty brand. And our kind of claim to fame and what our company is built around is our concept of concentrate.

[00:01:35] So we launched the first ever shampoo conditioner body wash concentrates a couple of years ago. They are waterless cream formulas packed in aluminum tubes. And it's a very kind of new novel way to use some of these kind of

[00:01:52] mainstay beauty products in a much more sustainable but also clean and high performance way. It feels like the idea of a concentrate would have been done before. Beauty products are often especially shampoo, often a lot of water.

[00:02:08] Water adds weight, weight is expensive and packaging and all of the rest of it. Why did it take so long for someone to come to market with a product like yours? Were there technical hurdles? Was it educating the customer base?

[00:02:23] Like, help me understand that the concentrate part first. Great question. There's two answers to that. So short version for both and then I'll take into them a little bit more. So short version is there has been concentrates before,

[00:02:35] but we're the first ones to do kind of this new concept of a cream based concentrate. So we've had things like shampoo bars. We've had things like, you know, at least for the last decade, powdered, you know, body wash or shampoo products.

[00:02:50] So there's been some different iterations, sometimes pods or sheets or different things you activate or mix with water. But we are the first ones who've taken kind of these concentrated actives in your formulas and put them in a base of skincare ingredients

[00:03:04] so that they are really nourishing and high performance for your hair, skin and scalp. So the way we've kind of iterated is very new and novel. And we actually have a patent pending on it. Have one, one of times best invention.

[00:03:16] So happy to dig into that innovation side a little bit more. And then I guess to answer the first question, you know, one of the main reasons is that a lot of players haven't gone into this space yet is that traditional beauty products when they're 70, 80 or sometimes 90% water.

[00:03:30] That water is very inexpensive and it adds a lot of volume. So there's gives this kind of like value perception of having this, you know, big bottle, usually it's a plastic bottle has like the shelf presence.

[00:03:41] So it creates that value story, but the formulas are actually quite can be quite inexpensive to make because water, which is cheap is the majority of the formula. So we've kind of flipped that on its head when we created Everest.

[00:03:52] We took out the water, we concentrated the products down to a third of the size and then to make sure that these cleansers that were in there are really gentle and nourishing, we put them in this aloe and glycerin base, this skincare base.

[00:04:04] And it's this really rich cream. It's a beautiful kind of almost like a La Mer type of texture, like a really thick and rich cream. And you simply activate it with the water that you're already using in the shower.

[00:04:15] So instead of paying for a bottle, that's mostly water, a plastic bottle. That's mostly water and shipping that water around the world. You're just getting the actives suspended in this beautiful nourishing cream and you use the water that you're already using in the shower.

[00:04:29] Just take a little bit, kind of spread it over your wet hands, lather it up in your wet hair and you get this great premium, you know, salon quality shampoo conditioner and body wash experience. So that's kind of how we first arrived on the concept.

[00:04:42] And then we're actually in an interesting place of evolution as a brand because we launched very much, we created the brand very much from this sustainability perspective. Jessica and I were working at in Big Beauty at some of the world's biggest beauty companies.

[00:04:54] We saw this need to do something really different to kind of move this innovation faster towards, you know, the future that we want to all see. So we jumped on it from that point of view. But actually after having the products in market for a couple of years

[00:05:07] and hearing the feedback from our community on the benefits of this skincare base for their hair, their healthy hair growth, their skin, their scalp health, that's really actually what for us is becoming a key part of our message

[00:05:20] because that's really the big differentiator of Everest versus, for example, a shampoo bar. It's kind of like the easiest way to think about Everest is almost like if you took a shampoo bar, you ground it up and you put it in your moisturizer. That's what we made.

[00:05:32] And originally we were trying to make it, you know, easier to use because it would be, you know, quote unquote wet and closer to the form factor people are used to but these scalp benefits and these hair benefits are kind of a nice aside

[00:05:43] that we kind of discovered along the process that we're really leaning into. And is it the same formulation that you launched with? You just realized through listening to your constituents and being in market that hold on a sec,

[00:05:56] there's maybe a different value proposition or an additional value proposition or did you end up reformulating partway through? There's been iterations for sure but the base kind of concepts and majority of the composition is the same. So we designed it to be for scalp health.

[00:06:16] You know, we had, we come from I back when it was at L'Oreal, Justice at Revlon, professional salon brand. So we know this industry very well. We've done product development before. We worked with kind of a best in class chemist.

[00:06:26] So we had all that information when we were creating the product and we designed it to do these things, right? Because when you have a concentrate, sometimes our concern was we don't want it to be harsh. We don't want it to be stripping.

[00:06:36] We need to make sure it's in something gentle that kind of buffers the cleansing ability and is really good. So we knew it would be good and from our own experience, we thought it was excellent.

[00:06:45] But then when we launched it, we got tons of feedback on many different things. So like things like the formulas being too dense. So we packaged them in 100% recycled and recyclable aluminum tubes instead of plastic bottles. So the formulas are really thick.

[00:07:00] So sometimes if we heated them too long or mixed them too much, they'd be hard to get out of the tube. So we had to refine the formula a little bit there in our manufacturing process. Also things like the formulas were very temperature sensitive.

[00:07:12] So one degree too hot or too cool, they would get gritty or they would be too hard. So we had to refine that. And then we've put in like dense mother iterations around, for example, having more as we've been doing kind of quote unquote waterless.

[00:07:25] We were one of the first in this waterless beauty market. There's been a lot more options for raw materials to use because it's kind of emerged as this big trend. So we've had more options of things to add into the formulas over the years.

[00:07:36] So for example, we added like a plant based bond building system that outperformed all of Olaplex in their clinical testing, but it's natural. So we put that in the shampoo.

[00:07:44] We really completely reinvented our conditioner to launch the deep conditioner because that can also be used as a hair mask at one Cosmopolitan's best clean conditioner at the Clean Beauty Awards last year, which is huge for us. Not best sustainable, best overall, like really a high performance formula.

[00:07:58] So we launched that. But the base is the same. What hasn't changed is 50% of our formulas have been since we launched aloe vera and glycerin, which are natural moisturizers.

[00:08:08] And that's the benefit of the where the benefits of the scalp health are coming from and what hearing those benefits from our community, which we kind of hypothesized on but hearing them actually in their own words and their enthusiasm for them.

[00:08:20] You know, people who have like sensitive scalp, itchy scalp, they say, you know, every other my scalp stings, every other shampoo burns my scalp. This is the only thing that I find soothing and I'm seeing these hair benefits.

[00:08:29] That's given us the confidence as well as some clinical preclinical testing. We've done, I can talk about too. It's given us the confidence to kind of lean into that scalp health and that hair wellness messaging even harder, even though it was always there.

[00:08:42] We've kind of beefed up the product and then leaned into the feedback from our community. The last 90 seconds has four podcasts in it. But you know, you're working at Big Beauty.

[00:08:55] How did you decide that it was time to leave what sounds like the kinds of jobs that people dream of having when they're in that industry? So you've gotten into a place where a lot of people would be like I'm at a globally recognized brand and product development.

[00:09:12] That's a career sweet spot. What was it that had you go? All right. I think it's time that I'm going to leave and start up a business manufacturing a product which is not an easy thing to do and kind of help define an entirely different category.

[00:09:28] And like there's a whole bunch of ends in there. So maybe take us back to... We're just gluttonies for punishment. Entrepreneurs are a little bit like... Love to challenge ourselves, Neo. What is the gluttony for punishment stuff? That is a great question.

[00:09:47] Yes, we I think we to be totally honest and it sounds almost cliche. We just wanted to have more impact. We got to the point in our careers. I was at a VP level just as a general manager of a clean beauty brand.

[00:10:00] We loved what we were doing but it's really hard to make change quickly in some of these big beauty companies. They're great. They're wonderful companies that do lots of great innovation. We loved learning from them.

[00:10:13] But it's just in a big multinational company, it just change happens more slowly. And I think we wanted to go faster. We wanted to have more impact and we kind of got to the point where we were almost hitting that ceiling.

[00:10:27] And we felt like, okay, if we really want to make this change happen, we're going to have to do it ourselves. So that's where it started. Timing was interesting too. Like for me, I have two young children.

[00:10:37] So it was after my maternity leave with my son who's my youngest. I was ready to kind of think about, okay, if I'm going to be working now, you know, what do I really want to be working towards? What's important to me?

[00:10:48] You have a lot of that time to think when you have children. When you have a toddler at home, it's not necessarily, wow, I've got all of the energy and time in the world to be starting up a new business. Also a bit crazy.

[00:11:00] Yeah, it kind of just evolved. It started very organically like Jess and I were longtime friends. We went to business school together. We've always stayed in touch. We have the same group of friends. We started talking. We started iterating.

[00:11:12] We were kind of curious and we just followed this trail of breadcrumbs, I guess. And it kind of just as opposed to having the full vision of everything laid out from the beginning,

[00:11:22] we've always just kind of continued to learn and evolve and pivot and learn and evolve and pivot. And I think that's been part of why we've created something so unique because we very much started with the problem, but we were totally open on what the solution would be.

[00:11:38] So we started saying, okay, we know like, we know that plastic is going to be a problem. It's already a problem. It's every piece of plastic that's ever been created more or less with the excluding the very, very small percentage that was recycled. It's all around still somewhere.

[00:11:52] Like we're not going to the shampoo bottle that your mom used in high school is still somewhere. Like they all exist and this is going to be something that we're going to have to figure out. So plastic is a problem. The industry needs to evolve.

[00:12:05] Obviously, we want more, we want to pay more attention to the ingredients that are going into our formulas, how they're biodegrading what they're doing in our water systems when they go down the drain.

[00:12:15] Like all of these world problems we saw kind of through the lens of looking at it from Big Beauty, but then also hearing from like the customers that we were so in touch with at these corporations.

[00:12:26] So we saw that problem and I think we were really open on how we wanted to address it, but we wanted to have some impact. So we started first thinking about like, okay, will we do a refillary kind of retail concept?

[00:12:40] Is there going to be like a bougie Sephora bulk bar in hybrid? Is that going to be what it is? Will it be a milkman model where the products come to your house and go back?

[00:12:49] Will it be a bunch of different concepts as well and like waterless too? We saw waterless coming as like a big trend. There were these brands popping up. A lot of them American mostly in the home cleaning space like now Blue Land is probably the best known one

[00:13:02] that we're doing concentrated cleaning products that you mix at home with water. We saw that and we said, that's genius, but we weren't really set on what the thing would be. We were very much like open to like, you know, going in looking at these ideas,

[00:13:15] modeling them out, getting some feedback. If it didn't, if we didn't seem like it would have legs, we kind of moved on to the next. And for us, it was about how do we create something that is truly innovative, more sustainable, more clean, better for people on planet,

[00:13:29] but has the ability to be mainstream. So how do we make it that it still has that mass appeal that you collect all of those things that people love about beauty products first and foremost performance, but then also things in like shower care, like the scent, the lather,

[00:13:46] like how it feels in your hair when you're kind of like lathering it up in the shower. How do you like tick all of the boxes that and make just the best shampoo people have ever used, but just happens to be, you know, more clean, more sustainable.

[00:14:00] How do we like trojan horse that in there so that we get more of that mainstream customer over to the place that we all need to be? It doesn't also demand massive behavior change, right? Like when you're in channel, you know, you're in retail,

[00:14:15] the behavior changes. I'm not going to reach for this. I'm going to reach for that versus I'm going to create a new pattern and go to my bougie Sephora bulk barn, which I've never been to before, or I'm going to sign up for some sort of subscription thing.

[00:14:31] Exactly. Exactly. We were aware how hard it was to change behavior. And to be fair, like there's lots of those concepts that have come out now and I think they're wonderful. There is a customer for that and like love to see people doing those types of businesses. Amazing.

[00:14:45] But for us, it was like, how do you make something that's easier for that mainstream customer to kind of adopt and how do you make it closer to what they're used to? So when we kind of honed in on this idea of waterless,

[00:14:58] which I said when we saw that trend happening in home care first, we put our lens on like beauty and then shower products kind of came to the forefront because you use them in the shower in the water and they are mostly water.

[00:15:10] So that seemed like an obvious place for us to dig into first. But it's like of all the potential form factors, how do you find something that's easy for people to understand close to what they're used to and also has additional benefits.

[00:15:24] So once we had zeroed in on like shower, originally we were trying to do like a mix at home shampoo. So like a shampoo tablet or a shampoo powder that you mix with water into like a kind of keep type of canister

[00:15:35] that was like the original waterless kind of shower care concept. And it was just like, it just didn't for us like coming from the beauty industry, just wasn't something that we would use. It was messy, we couldn't get the like the texture right.

[00:15:47] It was very watery or you had to put a lot of thickeners into it. If you like shook it to mix it, you know bubbles were everywhere, it was explosion. And we're worried about contamination with people mixing if they had to boil water.

[00:15:57] So it was just a little bit too far for us. And there's pods and their sheets which have some of their own challenges in terms of like how they biodegrade and stuff like that. So we looked at all these different waterless concepts

[00:16:08] and kind of like dismiss them and shampoo bars is a good one. But again, we thought there was a customer who liked the idea of shampoo bars, but maybe didn't like the actual like experience of using them. So could we make it something closer to that?

[00:16:21] So we ended up taking this powdered shampoo that we had from our clean canister and we ended up mixing it in an aloe plant in my kitchen. So I took some fresh aloe vera from the aloe plant,

[00:16:32] mixed the concentrated shampoo powder into it to see if it would still have the same effect. And so legit like you're squeezing aloe vera out of aloe vera? This is like the very first iteration. We did all of this with like a chemist in a lab.

[00:16:46] We have, you know, lots of like preclinicals and we had universities working on it. You know, we did a project with Sarka College, but this was just the first idea. I'm like, I wonder if you could put a powdered shampoo in an aloe

[00:16:56] and if it would still lather if it would just give the same effect. So that was the first try. Didn't shower with it more just to like see what the texture would be, how it would work.

[00:17:05] And then we got in touch with our chemist and we said, okay, this is could we could we put this in like a base of aloe vera? And then she came back with would you want to put some glycerin in there, which is a super powerful natural humectant.

[00:17:16] It's moisturizer. So that's how we actually came out with this concept of like making the formulas of cream, making them like wet by putting them in this base of like natural moisturizers. And that's what ended up being our uniqueness. That's what our patent pending is on.

[00:17:32] And that's what we're kind of like leaning into now with this hair care skincare messaging that is really easy for people to understand whatever is is. But that's kind of how we got to that like waterless cream paste concept is that kind of journey.

[00:17:45] I love that, you know, in all of these conversations, there always feels to me like the classic scene in the movie about you guys building the business where,

[00:17:56] you know, one of the two of you or you kind of, you know, the camera pans to your aloe vera plant and and and there's, you know, there's also all the outtakes of us like crying in our car. And like, No, it's like that.

[00:18:10] They go hand in hand builds the dramatic tension, you know, up to the aloe vera plant for sure. So maybe this is the crying in your car part, not to not to bring you back there.

[00:18:21] But you sort of rhymed off really quickly a bunch of ideas that it sounds like you spent it maybe a hot minute on or maybe you spent a bunch of time on but you know you're talking about the shower bars and some powders and some, you know, all of these other kind of did you kind of proof of concept those or did you back of the napkin those

[00:18:44] and sort of model it out and go, Okay, I don't even think we're going to get to proof of concept because I just I don't feel this checks the box is like how did you how did you knock some of the things off the list that that got cut off the list.

[00:18:59] Good question. So it was kind of an in between, to be honest.

[00:19:02] So we modeled them out like financially to kind of understand what that business could look like and that disqualified some things early on like things like retail that would just be like two capital intensive for us to take on and also like a bit out of our expertise.

[00:19:18] Yep.

[00:19:19] And then another one was the other way we kind of approach it so I was kind of the financial, you know, kind of dive into it and then also the other one was more like a sense check like a gut check amongst ourselves but also with our friends and like our kind of extended network like would you use this,

[00:19:34] sometimes it's really hard to when you get so deep into something to like look at things really objectively, like if you saw this product on a shelf like would you buy it. And what would you need to hear to buy it what would be missing what would you your

[00:19:49] hesitations be like it was a lot of very informal kind of gut check and sense checking within our network before we went too far down any of those paths.

[00:20:00] And what was the roughly that timeline between you and Jessica saying I think that that we want to do this. Did you quit your jobs right away was this evenings and weekends like how quickly did you go.

[00:20:17] All right, like we're doing this. And then what was the timeline up until hey I think we've kind of landed on the product now it's about refining versus deciding.

[00:20:29] It's it's was a couple of years that we worked on this before we launched so it was a very long process I would say like, probably the first year was like part time as we were exploring it, looking at different options and kind of like our free time

[00:20:44] and then the second year was like really once we kind of like narrowed in on this concentrates idea this like cream concentrates idea it was like a very heavy R&D type of year to get us to our products that we launched with in Fed 2021 so it's been about three years now that we've been in market and still

[00:21:02] like always learning iterating obsessed with improving how do we make this by you know I read every customer comments all day on how what they love what they don't like how do we give new and better options.

[00:21:13] How do we solve problems for people I don't think that changes once you've launched I think we very much are still in that like learning mindset and always want to improve.

[00:21:23] And in those early days were you self funded were you also trying to fundraise was there a partners in the in the mix beyond you and Jessica.

[00:21:33] So we were self funded in the beginning probably for the first year and then before while we were in kind of that second year of like product development we actually met a group of angel investors at an event that was kind of serendipitous.

[00:21:48] It was right before COVID happened which kind of was interesting timing as everything unfolded but we did raise a little bit a small amount of kind of pre seed money to get the R&D off the ground because that did take a pretty big investment to get started.

[00:22:06] And then you've you've that's been your funding to date or has there been further funding since then.

[00:22:11] We've done a couple bridges with the same group of strategic investors we have an awesome group of very supportive and strategic kind of angels and family offices that it's that same group from the beginning they've kind of like stayed with us and supported us through our growth.

[00:22:25] I mean because I know I know you know with certain capital intensive businesses, you end up spending half your time trying to deal with the money side and investors and the expectations versus folks who get it and understand when you know there might need to be another check to get you over whatever that hurdle is and then you can spend the vast majority of your time actually running the business and reading customer comments and doing all that really good stuff.

[00:22:50] We could do a whole other podcast and fundraising that's like a mother. I needed to touch on it. That would move on. Yeah, let's let's chat. Packaging for a second. Your packaging is is unique. Maybe describe the packaging for listeners who haven't seen it.

[00:23:08] And then I've got some questions. Sure thing so we actually have two different types of packaging now which is again feedback from our community and kind of evolution as we've learned but we launched with and it's still our lead packaging we have 100% of the

[00:23:23] recycled and recyclable aluminum tubes. So they're kind of like that old those old school toothpaste tubes.

[00:23:30] They include in the box of Everest when you buy our concentrates you also get a metal tube key that you kind of roll the tube down to squeeze the concentrate cream out of. So they're really cool they're very tactile. We think they're super premium.

[00:23:47] They are great because they don't suck air back in like a plastic tube so when you like use a plastic tube it kind of like sucks has a little bit of like suck back where it brings in air and like water potential for contamination.

[00:23:57] These ones they were originally used for a lot of like medical products or pharmaceutical products so they don't have any air suck back so they help preserve the integrity of the product inside.

[00:24:07] And they're great they're really tactile but they have been like a little bit finicky or challenging with the density of our products because our formulas are really thick so we had to kind of perfect our manufacturing process to make sure they were easy to dispense about an inch is what you take of the concentrate cream.

[00:24:23] And it takes like maybe a little bit of getting used to like how much to dispense and how to use it but it becomes very intuitive over time.

[00:24:30] So we have these aluminum tubes and then we also launched probably a year after we launched aluminum tins so we have two sizes we have our full size aluminum tin, which is 100 mil kind of looks like a hockey puck almost with like a cute design on it and then we have our travel mini tin, which is a smaller version of that which is kind of like your trial size that you can take to travel all of our products

[00:24:52] and then we have our plastic bags so the full size tube and tin are the same size they're 100 mils they have about 50 washes in there, which is really cool because 100 mil but you can put it in your carry on if you wanted to so it's three to four months of

[00:25:05] your normal full size bottle that you can kind of take with you it's really portable great for your gym bag or travel and then the mini tin is tiny but it has about 10 washes in it so if you compare it to like those little plastic travel

[00:25:16] minis, you get way more use out of it, but it's nice small and compact about the same size.

[00:25:22] I love that the TS I just got back from a weekend trip and I so TSA packing is on my mind I did see that on the website that that feels like a key, a key benefit.

[00:25:34] I want to ask about the key because I jumped out at me in a couple of different ways and one was that feels like there's some pedigree to it right like that it's a bit of a throwback.

[00:25:46] Also, it really felt to me like an element of the packaging that did elevate and differentiate the product. Who's idea was that and is that is that one of those ones you look back and go man that was it.

[00:26:00] There's a great thing or Jesus a bit of a pain because it's got to be explained like it's very unique you don't see it very much. Definitely a great thing we love it it's definitely like functional and I can't remember.

[00:26:13] I can't remember where it came from it's probably a collab between Jess and I as most things are but we definitely we definitely thought it was beautiful as premium they're all engraved with our everest logo.

[00:26:22] We've even done like promotions for like our subscription program and stuff where you can do custom engraving with your initials and stuff on the keys.

[00:26:30] So yeah so we do we do think it's beautiful and it's very it is very nostalgic and it's very tactile to use really fun to use but also it's very functional because our products are dense like it really does help you get the product out of the tube.

[00:26:42] So we include them in our cartons when you buy but if you join our subscription program on our site we actually don't we ship the first order with the key and then like following orders come key list so people kind of keep their keys and continue to use them which was another kind of piece of feedback from our community that we've implemented.

[00:27:03] Can you like does all do all municipalities allow you to recycle the packaging even if there's still a little bit of product inside it like how does that work. Good question. It is so complicated. Okay, this is like the big learning. Yeah, it's so complicated.

[00:27:18] So generally the thing that the process with aluminum is it's melted. So you clean it out as best you can. It's melted down and then any impurities or product residue was kind of like skimmed off as they're processing it.

[00:27:31] So that's how it's done and generally it's so different like depending on which municipality you talk to the tubes or sorry the tins are generally more widely recycled than the tubes.

[00:27:43] So that's why we have the tin option now the tubes are most likely to be picked up if you actually empty them with the key and then if you bunch them with other aluminum kind of like foil or pipe plates it needs to be like the size of a tennis ball or larger so it's best it's the best it's easiest for the machines to pick it up if you kind of bunch your

[00:28:01] aluminum together.

[00:28:03] But in general it is so different and that's been like the biggest challenge for us is like trying to figure out you know the perfect solution when really like the system is not perfect the system is broken and aluminum you know when you do your digging on materials which we did such a deep dive before we launch so we definitely didn't want to use plastic.

[00:28:20] You know, as I mentioned before pretty much all the plastic that's ever been made is in a landfill somewhere. There's very little economic incentive to recycle plastic because it costs more to recycle and it does make new plastic.

[00:28:33] So we really need to start thinking a little bit you know it has this place for certain like keep forever type of items it has a spot but it's just been so it's so overused.

[00:28:40] So we did a lot of research on different materials so plastic was you know off the table from beginning glass is great. But it's not great for the shower and it can be heavy to ship.

[00:28:50] So all of our research kind of pointed us to aluminum because it is one of the most recycled materials it's the most recycled material in blue boxes across North America and it is this way because it can be infinitely recycled to over and over again you can recycle aluminum and it keeps its integrity it doesn't like plastic if you were to recycle it once maybe if it gets picked up.

[00:29:10] It would be downgraded to a lower quality plastic and maybe you know that's it in aluminum keeps its integrity it can be infinitely recycled over and over again so it's a great material.

[00:29:19] It's just a little bit more challenging from a you know looking at all of the different municipal you know regulations in terms of how people want certain things disposed so hopefully there's some kinks worked out of that system in the future because it is tough to navigate but we've tried to give the most broad kind of instructions that we can based on the information that we have.

[00:29:40] We components like the cap which is the only piece of plastic we couldn't get away from so the cap is its own kind of story we made the caps bright colors so they're bright yellow red blue to remind us to always keep improving because we tried originally to do like a wooden cap or like a metal cap and we found they were leaking with the formulas and a lot of them had like a plastic lining inside them which is mixed materials which is even less recyclable.

[00:30:05] It's almost worse so we went with the plastic cap and then we made it a bright color to remind us to always do better so we're always looking for new kind of solutions to replace that and then we created because we wanted to be as close to you know quote unquote zero waste as possible we created this cap back program so you can actually collect your caps and your keys if you wanted to.

[00:30:24] At home we say to collect at least 10 just so the carbon reverse shipping carbon impact isn't too big but you can go to our website you can request a return shipping envelope from us will send it to you the return shipping label and then you can just send them back to us for upcycling.

[00:30:38] So we've tried to kind of think about all the components and really like be so considered and so intentional about everything that we use so for example the cartons are 100% recycled paper no trees are being cut down it's made from purely recycled card stock.

[00:30:53] The tubes are 100% recycled aluminum and can be recycled as well as the tin can be recycled the caps can come back to us you know the overall waste impact of an ever is concentrate is 62% less waste impact as measured by a third party group called bluebird climate and also because they're a third of the size because they're smaller they also have a 77% smaller carbon impact.

[00:31:17] This is kind of the beauty I guess of creating something from the ground up is that it's really hard in a big company that's already established to kind of reverse engineer these things it just takes so much longer but if you're starting out with that intention, building from that place and it affects things like obviously pricing and all these different things

[00:31:35] building your company with that as your foundation is much easier and obviously there's you have to be very creative and willing to kind of accept the cost of some of these things but it puts you it makes it easier to kind of aim for that, you know, lower waste option if you're starting it new versus kind of trying to do it later.

[00:31:53] Yeah, easier. You know, Jamie, in the sense that, you know, we can be curious and creative about each of these things and we can do our caps and bright colors and we can send the caps back like all of those really interesting.

[00:32:14] If you started with a blank piece of paper, but the other challenge was starting with a blank piece of paper is that you are making decisions about everything.

[00:32:24] And, you know, again just listening to you sounds like we could do an entire podcast episode on recycling like what part in all of these deep dives.

[00:32:33] What part of this did you and Jessica find yourselves, you know, maybe most surprised by or most out of your element like where where was the part where you went Wow okay this is this whole area is bigger than we thought it might be. That's a good question.

[00:32:52] Sustainability is definitely one of them. It is like so complicated. And I think when you're like any like any kind of area of focus when you don't know the depth that kind of seems more black and white but as you get into it there's just so much gray.

[00:33:10] So I think that's sustainability is definitely one but there's so many things in general we had to learn like it's all been a journey of learning which is thankfully I think what Jessica and I enjoy, but you know we knew very traditional

[00:33:24] brand marketing kind of consumer product marketing but the manufacturing side is very has been a huge challenge for us like we're not chemists we have hired you know some of the best chemist to help us create these products but we had to learn so much about you know clean cosmetic chemistry and ingredients.

[00:33:42] And the manufacturing processes so that was a big one and then another one that's been like would be surprising maybe to some people that we've had to really learn is like a lot of like e commerce marketing and all digital marketing all the DTC business.

[00:33:57] We didn't like I personally didn't have a ton of experience with like working at for some big beauty brands before it was very much wholesale focus.

[00:34:03] So we had to spend a lot of time in the first couple years you know we established and built this like really beautiful brand and we got lots of great you know PR and won lots of awards when we launched over the past couple years.

[00:34:15] That was kind of more traditional brand marketing but the actual side of growth marketing or more kind of DTC marketing we had to direct to consumer marketing in terms of e commerce and all the different tools and tactics and KPI is like that was a big learning curve I think for us as well which we finally started to create

[00:34:33] and it's like a new track and has led to some of the amazing growth that we're seeing now but obviously it's been a journey.

[00:34:39] Well indeed to see also changes all of the time with like new future sets and existing platforms and new platforms and it's a little bit like you know trying to you know merge onto the highway is a little bit overwhelming but so once you're on the highway you're moving

[00:34:57] but you've also got to be watching out for accidents and changing lanes like it's not a big deal but it's a big deal and it's a big thing that happens so fast.

[00:35:04] Yeah so I'm always interested when I talk to folks who have co-founders usually there's a counterbalance there and people kind of you know they bring different skill sets and they fall into lanes a little bit.

[00:35:14] We mentioned lots of things being obviously a collaboration between you and Jessica do you each bring a different skill set have you have you dropped into hey that's pretty clearly a Jamie thing and that's pretty clearly a Jessica thing how do you guys kind of

[00:35:30] divvy up the work and the thinking.

[00:35:33] We've definitely kind of landed in that rhythm now in the beginning before we were creating the brand we actually sat down and kind of outlined on paper like these are your functional areas these are my functional areas but I think I think the reason that we work so well together as a team similar to how I think relationships work like

[00:35:54] Jess and I are very different we think about things very differently we have very different skill sets but at the same time we have the same vision for the business the same values and we have a deep respect for each other so despite the fact that we have our specific kind of lanes outlined on paper these are my functional areas these are yours.

[00:36:17] I would have rank in these decisions you would have rank in these ones.

[00:36:21] We've never been in the situation where we've like quote unquote like pulled rank on each other we very much value consensus and making decisions together so even if you know we're on different pages originally we will often have those discussions and come not always somewhere to the middle but like land on something that we're both happy with because for us are making sure that that level of partnership is preserved.

[00:36:47] We know is like critical to the company and also she's just a friend you know I really value our relationship so that piece has been really important for us just to make sure that we keep that foundation strong.

[00:36:58] Coming up with a product is almost a different thing than getting a product to market is almost different thing then trying to hit retail at scale like they're just totally they're all so different yeah while they're different.

[00:37:10] Wildly different and I would say every one of those steps like creating the product the just like the communications around the product everyone of those steps is so much better and stronger because we created it together versus as one of us independently I just think that process of like.

[00:37:27] Discussion iteration I don't want to say debate but sometimes debate like everything in our business the products the way the business is structured everything is better because of us doing it together I really believe that.

[00:37:38] Yeah and well and debates not a bad word right like you debate things because you're passionate about them arguing not listening like those aren't great but. Bringing a passionate view to the table is what you want in a partner so.

[00:37:50] Let me shift gears and ask about the business today I know you've got some you know you're in some really big chains that you started I think a bit more e-commerce but lots of physical retail orient me and what's going on today.

[00:38:07] Were you know I think a couple years in we've seen some really great momentum over the last six months were growing almost 10x versus last year so really kind of starting to I think starting to hit some like awareness which is great it took us at the first couple years to.

[00:38:23] Perfect the product the manufacturing a lot of our like systems and like functions and processes and I think we're really. Leaning into this this growth in this momentum now which is really exciting.

[00:38:34] The majority still the majority of our business is direct to consumers with our e-commerce website hello ever stop calm but we also are with a bunch of select retail partners so we're in Canada with well that's yeah in the US grow collaborative we're in whole foods across.

[00:38:52] Canada in the US so that's in over 500 doors less of stores and we're on Amazon in the US only Canada eventually so some great retail partners as well.

[00:39:05] Who are also growing as we kind of grow this awareness of our brand overall so great distribution and like lots of I think innovation in the future as I kind of alluded to where like a really kind of pivotal point with the business as.

[00:39:20] As we have started to change our messaging a little bit so in the beginning we really leaned into the innovation story the sustainability story and as I mentioned.

[00:39:30] We heard so much about you know the scalp and the hair and skin benefits of this kind of skincare base of our concentrate so kind of shifting more to the message to are speaking about that first.

[00:39:39] Has really been our unlock I think it's just easier to for people to understand and you know getting it into the right hands has made a big difference so we're kind of in this a bit of a brand evolution phase as we lean more into this.

[00:39:51] Scalpel hair wellness journey with a lot of new innovations kind of coming down the pipeline and also some really interesting like preclinical results coming out so as we've done testing with the products.

[00:40:04] We really you know again we're obsessed with with innovation and learning and understanding so interesting like fun fact I guess on beauty like a lot of times when people are you see like clinical studies and making air quotes quote unquote clinical studies and a lot of beauty marketing they're actually consumer perception studies so you'll see like.

[00:40:21] Ninety two percent said their skin looked smoother something like that mostly usually these are done it's like thirty people take the product home they do a survey at the beginning and at the end and then that's the.

[00:40:32] Results that people are using for their like marketing claims which is has a place for making marketing claims but the work that we're doing so different than that so we have a partnership with.

[00:40:42] TRI Princeton which is kind of a global research institution based in the US and we brought people into their lab to wash their hair with Everest shampoo conditioning concentrate and wash their hair with traditional water based shampoo and to measure.

[00:40:56] Their scalp hydration after with an instrument so with the infrared spectroscopy with a hydrometer they put it on their scalp after they wash their hair to measure their scalp hydration levels and it's a small study it's still preclinicals we're going to eventually expand this into a full clinical study but they can already pick up in the small group that after washing their

[00:41:16] hair and conditioning with Everest they have longer lasting scalp hydration and less trans epidermal water loss which is the sign of the health of the scalp microbiome so really interesting stuff happening there related to the skincare base which we're leaning into more and will dig further kind of into.

[00:41:34] The science and kind of expand that out into a full clinical trial so I kind of see that as kind of the next frontier of where we're going with Everest so when we're saying.

[00:41:42] Coming up with the idea getting to market getting to scale not that these chapters are discrete but it sounds like you're just about to embark on a very exciting next chapter in the business I can and I can hear the excitement which is which is fantastic so I failed to ask where did the name come from.

[00:42:04] This is my favorite question we want to name the business after our customer so our customer is the Everest and what is an Everest and Everest is someone who thinks big picture who's that blue sky thinker who thinks about their forever impact.

[00:42:20] Of the products they use on themselves but also the planet so they're that really kind of thoughtful customer who thinks deeply about things and wants to kind of understand the why is behind everything goes that level deeper that's our customer and we want to do everything that we do for them.

[00:42:35] I love that and I love that I waited the end because I because I can then say I have been deeply interested in the in the why is about this business and your journey and your journey with Jessica.

[00:42:47] I really really really have enjoyed this conversation and I'm hoping that maybe we often do a bit of a check back in.

[00:42:55] I'm hoping that maybe we can check back in a little while because it sounds like there's pretty exciting things coming up but I really appreciate you sharing your story and sharing your time. It's been my pleasure thank you.

[00:43:06] Hey everybody it's Neil again and that is it for the third season of the Innovation Day podcast. This episode marks number 35 which means one thing you have a whole summer of listening in store if you want to go back and route through the archives.

[00:43:26] On behalf of our producer Darrell Webster and myself I want to thank you for listening. We're going to take a bit of a break over the summer but we'll be back in the fall with more.

[00:43:35] Take a moment and subscribe to the show so you don't miss the first episode of our next season. Have a great summer everyone.