[00:00:00] I highly recommend finding someone who's an expert in the things that you're not.
[00:00:07] I would have been spinning my wheels for a long time had I tried to do all that stuff
[00:00:11] myself.
[00:00:14] In September 2023, I was in San Diego for the Sustainable Brands Conference and this
[00:00:19] episode is a direct result of that trip.
[00:00:22] I met today's guest Britta while standing in line at the conference and almost instantly
[00:00:27] I knew we had to have her on the show.
[00:00:29] Listening to her startup story, she exuded all of those foundational attributes of an
[00:00:34] innovator and entrepreneur.
[00:00:36] She was curious but very committed to her vision.
[00:00:39] She was tenacious with seemingly boundless energy and she had seen an opportunity and
[00:00:44] was all in to bring her vision to life.
[00:00:47] It's been a while since Britta and I first met and also a few months since we've
[00:00:51] recorded and I'm very excited to be launching this episode within days of Britta launching
[00:00:56] her business.
[00:00:59] Britta, it is great to have you on the show.
[00:01:03] Thanks for having me.
[00:01:04] You have a lot of titles.
[00:01:06] I get the sense we're in the early stages where you are probably wearing a lot of
[00:01:12] hats.
[00:01:13] Maybe fill me in on where the business is today and then we'll probably go back
[00:01:18] to how did it start and then go forward to where do you want to go but ground
[00:01:22] us in today.
[00:01:23] Well, you're totally right about that.
[00:01:24] I am wearing a lot of hats right now.
[00:01:26] It is just me, myself and I currently building this business.
[00:01:30] So I kind of started pursuing this idea about three years ago.
[00:01:34] And fast forward to today, we are very close to launching.
[00:01:39] We've got our website up and running.
[00:01:42] And I would say we're going to be formally launching in early twenty twenty four.
[00:01:46] So it's been about three and a half years in the making.
[00:01:49] Give a sense of when you launch number of products, type of products, kind of
[00:01:54] what is the virtual shelf look like?
[00:01:56] And then and then I'm going to want to talk about inspiration and founder stories
[00:02:00] and all of those those good things.
[00:02:01] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:02:03] So we are launching with three variations of our powder facial cleanser.
[00:02:08] So we're launching a cleanser for combination skin, one for sensitive skin
[00:02:14] and one for mature skin.
[00:02:16] I say mature skin because we don't really like the terminology of anti-aging
[00:02:20] around here at our company.
[00:02:22] So mature skin, meaning skin that's a little wiser.
[00:02:25] Nice. I think I fall into that category.
[00:02:29] I look in the mirror and I often say that's some wise skin
[00:02:34] that's looking back at me.
[00:02:36] So variations of powder cleanser.
[00:02:38] Talk to me about why powder cleanser and how did all of this come about?
[00:02:42] Well, the first step in skincare routine, at least in my opinion, is your cleanser.
[00:02:48] That's kind of really the base and foundation of where you get started.
[00:02:51] And so when I first wanted to develop a full skincare line,
[00:02:56] I knew that I wanted to start with a cleanser.
[00:02:58] Eventually down the road, the next thing that I know will do is is a serum
[00:03:03] that will come after the cleanser and then and then a moisturizer
[00:03:06] after that to kind of tie together a three step routine.
[00:03:09] But I think cleanser is fundamentally the most important.
[00:03:12] And it really is the type of product that was kind of my first idea
[00:03:18] in the beginning.
[00:03:20] I have always loved two things, Neil.
[00:03:22] The first is the outdoors and nature and just being outside as much as possible.
[00:03:28] And my second love is skincare.
[00:03:31] And I've really always loved those two things as long as I can remember.
[00:03:36] And I spent my 20s spending a lot of time in the outdoors,
[00:03:40] camping, backpacking, hiking, just being a very active person,
[00:03:43] living in very active lifestyle.
[00:03:45] So I am a yoga instructor and I just love, you know,
[00:03:50] doing anything that requires my body to move.
[00:03:53] And I also was traveling a ton for work, like flying, domestic,
[00:03:57] international, you name it.
[00:03:59] And what were you doing at the time?
[00:04:01] So at the time, I was running marketing for a company based out in the Bay Area,
[00:04:06] actually marketing technology for an event planning company.
[00:04:10] So far away from skincare and cosmetics.
[00:04:13] Oh, yes.
[00:04:14] And I get this question a lot.
[00:04:16] Oh, so how long have you been in the skincare industry?
[00:04:18] And I always say, well, I haven't.
[00:04:20] It's always been a passion of mine.
[00:04:22] But my background is in really growth marketing and business development.
[00:04:26] I've been in many, many industries in the growth marketing space
[00:04:31] from education to technology to events to retail, you name it.
[00:04:37] So I've always pursued kind of that marketing path.
[00:04:41] The time period that I'm speaking to you about is when I was living
[00:04:44] in Northern California in the Bay Area and I was working for a company.
[00:04:48] I was traveling a ton.
[00:04:49] And like I said, just being outdoors whenever possible.
[00:04:52] And it is also the time when I really started to get into exploring
[00:04:58] and learning as much as I possibly could about what clean skincare meant.
[00:05:02] It was a term at the time, the word clean, I think, kind of was more
[00:05:07] of a marketing term than anything else.
[00:05:08] So I really wanted to learn and understand what kinds of ingredients
[00:05:11] made something clean.
[00:05:12] And I am confident in saying that it definitely developed into an obsession.
[00:05:19] So as I was adventuring outdoors, and I particularly remember one time
[00:05:26] camping, and I just wished so badly that I had my skincare routine with me
[00:05:33] that I was using every day when I was not camping.
[00:05:37] And I also had so many times traveling for work where I left my skincare routine
[00:05:44] behind at home because I didn't want to carry clunky, kind of just
[00:05:50] inconvenient packaging with me.
[00:05:53] And then I have to check my bag and then the product inevitably explodes
[00:05:57] all over my head.
[00:05:58] Right?
[00:05:59] So that was kind of the genesis of this momentum that really started
[00:06:06] to build inside of me of I think that there's a problem here that I can solve for.
[00:06:10] I'm always amazed.
[00:06:12] I mean, I love hosting this podcast because I get to talk to so many
[00:06:17] interesting people who have done or are in the midst of doing things
[00:06:23] that are often really quite tangential to what they've done in the past.
[00:06:28] So I imagine as a growth marketer, you have built up a marketing toolkit
[00:06:34] that you can apply to your company as you start to launch.
[00:06:39] But as a growth marketer, you don't have a lot of tools in the toolkit
[00:06:44] for developing a new powder cleanser.
[00:06:49] Like where does one go from, jeez, I wish I had my skincare routine
[00:06:53] to I'm going to start to actually come up with my own formulation?
[00:06:59] Like that just seems for a lot of people, probably quite an insurmountable
[00:07:05] distance to travel.
[00:07:06] How does that start?
[00:07:07] Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:07:08] And you're absolutely right.
[00:07:09] I had no idea where to go after I came up with this concept.
[00:07:15] I kind of had this like aha moment.
[00:07:16] It hit me like a lightning bolt of how I wanted to tackle this.
[00:07:20] So up until this point before this story happened, I really just had
[00:07:25] like a pretty general concept of something I maybe wanted to pursue.
[00:07:30] Hadn't started it yet, was still working a full time job in house
[00:07:34] running marketing somewhere.
[00:07:36] And I was on a hike in Rock Creek Park in Washington DC
[00:07:39] and it was super hot and humid.
[00:07:41] And I sat down on a bench to have a snack and I had my water bottle.
[00:07:44] And at the time, I was like, man, I really wish I just had something with me
[00:07:49] to be able to like rinse my face off right now.
[00:07:51] But all I have is my water bottle.
[00:07:53] And then boom, it just kind of hit me like a lightning bolt.
[00:07:55] But what if I had something that was a powder that I just
[00:07:59] added a little bit of water to?
[00:08:00] Because that's all I have with me right now.
[00:08:02] It's just a little bit of water in a water bottle.
[00:08:04] You know, it's a proof of concept.
[00:08:06] We've seen it with powdered laundry detergents.
[00:08:09] We've seen it with powdered other things that are cleaning products.
[00:08:13] So why can't you apply that to skincare?
[00:08:16] So I went home that night and I just opened a notebook
[00:08:18] and I sat on my couch and I literally just started sketching.
[00:08:21] Just doing a full idea dump of what packaging could look like,
[00:08:26] what ingredients I knew I wanted to go into it
[00:08:30] that I had learned so much about over the years.
[00:08:32] Through the aforementioned obsession?
[00:08:34] Yes. Healthy at times, unhealthy at others.
[00:08:38] Fair enough.
[00:08:40] That's like the definition of an entrepreneur.
[00:08:42] So you're on your way.
[00:08:44] And please tell me that you still have that notebook.
[00:08:47] I do. I actually have it with me right now.
[00:08:49] I'm looking at it.
[00:08:50] I'm keeping it by my side just as a little homage.
[00:08:53] Not that this is at all analogous,
[00:08:54] but I remember the first time that I did a home renovation.
[00:08:58] And I remember going out for dinner
[00:09:00] and I wrote down on a piece of paper like kitchen,
[00:09:03] you know, weekend one, right?
[00:09:04] Like bathroom, weekend two.
[00:09:06] And then I looked back on that the year and a half
[00:09:10] into the renovation just at how sort of naive I was.
[00:09:15] Like I had the list of the rooms right,
[00:09:17] but probably nothing else.
[00:09:19] Not at all saying that that original note wasn't bang on,
[00:09:23] but as you reflect back this far into your journey
[00:09:26] on that original note,
[00:09:28] how much of that do you have sort of right
[00:09:31] in the bullseye and how much of it have you learned
[00:09:33] a ton since and went, oh wow, jeez,
[00:09:35] I was kind of off on that one.
[00:09:37] I love looking at it because it's so far removed
[00:09:41] from what we ended up moving with.
[00:09:42] Really, I'm the kind of person where if I need
[00:09:48] to kind of draw something up and really think through it
[00:09:50] in detail to really understand it,
[00:09:52] and then I need to know, okay, that's not going to work.
[00:09:55] So that was a really helpful exercise
[00:09:57] and I did that time and time again.
[00:09:58] Neil, I will tell you, we spent, I say we,
[00:10:02] it was really just me and my friends
[00:10:04] and family supporting me.
[00:10:05] But I spent like over a year going through
[00:10:10] so many different versions of what our packaging
[00:10:12] would look like before I made a decision
[00:10:14] of what I wanted to move forward with.
[00:10:16] And it was so much of that process,
[00:10:18] kind of like what you were talking about
[00:10:19] with sketching up your ideas for your renovation
[00:10:22] of you just have to do a big idea dump
[00:10:26] and you have to circle the ones that you like
[00:10:28] and that you think are achievable
[00:10:30] and then kind of table the ones
[00:10:32] that maybe won't work for one reason or another,
[00:10:34] but don't fully ever get rid of them.
[00:10:36] There are still sketches I have
[00:10:37] that I will probably come back to at some point.
[00:10:40] I have to imagine you start to get into
[00:10:43] a lot of different versions of packaging
[00:10:44] that you hadn't probably fully considered
[00:10:46] at the beginning.
[00:10:47] So I'm sure that there's a sustainability component
[00:10:50] of it if you mention clean product,
[00:10:53] you probably want some degree of clean packaging.
[00:10:55] And then you also have to start to think about
[00:10:58] shipping and shelf space and labels
[00:11:01] and all of this other sort of cascade of things.
[00:11:04] Did you find someone that could help say,
[00:11:09] oh, here's some things that you need to think about?
[00:11:11] Was it all just the internet?
[00:11:12] Was it trial and error?
[00:11:14] How did you start to zone in on the packaging
[00:11:17] that really checks probably even more boxes
[00:11:20] than you imagined at the beginning?
[00:11:21] You kind of nailed it that we really are focused
[00:11:23] on trying to be as sustainable as possible.
[00:11:26] We're probably not 100% perfect, amazing, sustainable,
[00:11:30] but we're really trying and we'll continue to innovate.
[00:11:34] So I first started Google was my best friend
[00:11:37] and still is to this day when it comes to just
[00:11:39] trying to figure stuff out, YouTube-ing videos.
[00:11:42] I took so many trips to places like Whole Foods
[00:11:46] and Ulta and REI and places where I knew people
[00:11:51] from the outdoors community did their shopping.
[00:11:53] And I looked at packaging of skincare and beauty
[00:11:56] and wellness products that were already on the shelves
[00:11:58] to try and understand what was currently out there.
[00:12:01] And then what I really started to do was
[00:12:03] I had all of these ideas and I was like,
[00:12:05] okay, let me just order things that are already out there
[00:12:09] that I can have sent to my house
[00:12:12] and I can just kind of start to mess around with.
[00:12:14] Like put powder in a paper packet or whatever it is
[00:12:17] and like see if it gets wet, you know what I mean?
[00:12:20] Like I started messing around with stuff
[00:12:23] and I talked to a lot of people
[00:12:26] but I didn't hire anyone specifically for the packaging.
[00:12:30] I just did a lot of research
[00:12:31] and attended some conferences.
[00:12:33] And I think that it's been really fun for me
[00:12:38] to look at really well-known brands that are currently,
[00:12:41] I think trying to innovate their packaging
[00:12:43] and seeing how they're doing it
[00:12:45] because I get basically a front row seat
[00:12:48] to how consumers are responding to that
[00:12:50] and also challenges that those companies are running into
[00:12:54] with trying to develop more sustainable packaging.
[00:12:56] So I've just been really tapped
[00:12:58] into that kind of stuff.
[00:12:59] Well, and there's also a bit of a,
[00:13:02] well, it's likely somewhat overwhelming
[00:13:04] because you're starting with a blank piece of paper
[00:13:06] and so you've got lots of options.
[00:13:08] You're not now having to reverse engineer
[00:13:12] a bunch of decisions on packaging
[00:13:13] that were made 10 years ago that aren't sustainable
[00:13:16] and you're trying to now update that packaging.
[00:13:19] You've sort of got the opportunity
[00:13:21] to come out of the gate with something
[00:13:24] that feels kind of not only right for now
[00:13:27] but likely has some legs in terms of sustainability
[00:13:31] and kind of getting it right the first time.
[00:13:33] Yes, that's totally right.
[00:13:35] And we really, one of the things I wanted to do
[00:13:38] very early on was make packaging decisions
[00:13:41] that I felt were of the future
[00:13:43] and not really of the right now
[00:13:46] and something that I could feel proud of
[00:13:48] 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now
[00:13:50] and something that I knew would really make a statement
[00:13:54] and make an impact when it comes to changes
[00:13:57] in how we look at skincare and how we consume it
[00:14:00] and also just how we consume in general
[00:14:02] things like single use plastics.
[00:14:04] I do wanna get back to actually making the product.
[00:14:08] So obviously there's a bunch of ingredients that go into it
[00:14:11] and you've done a bunch of research over the years.
[00:14:14] It sounds like you go into this with a bit of a shortlist.
[00:14:18] Are you ordering these ingredients off the internet?
[00:14:20] I kind of have this image of you
[00:14:22] with safety goggles in your kitchen
[00:14:24] and sort of dust is coming up.
[00:14:26] Talk to me about the actual process
[00:14:29] of coming up with the product itself.
[00:14:31] I'm fascinated.
[00:14:32] Yes, I do totally look like a mad scientist.
[00:14:34] I make my product.
[00:14:35] It's gonna make for an awesome scene
[00:14:37] in the movie that they make about your success
[00:14:40] like back in the day in your kitchen.
[00:14:42] It's very Breaking Bad for sure.
[00:14:46] So once I got to a point where I knew,
[00:14:49] okay, I wanna pursue this.
[00:14:50] I wanna spend the money
[00:14:52] and kind of start to do some development of a product.
[00:14:55] That was the moment in time where I said,
[00:14:57] okay, I have no experience in this area
[00:14:59] and I am not an expert in this area.
[00:15:01] So I went to the internet and I posted a job on Upwork
[00:15:06] to look for a chemist.
[00:15:08] And I just posted a very general,
[00:15:10] like I'm sure I could still even find my post
[00:15:14] of what I put out there.
[00:15:16] But I just said,
[00:15:17] I'm at the very early stages
[00:15:19] of developing a skincare brand.
[00:15:22] We're clean, sustainable, biodegradable, plant-based
[00:15:25] and I need someone to help me
[00:15:27] with just kind of getting started
[00:15:29] with kind of three different versions
[00:15:31] of face wash formula, waterless and in powder form,
[00:15:35] something along those lines.
[00:15:37] And I got Neal like thousands of responses.
[00:15:41] So I spent so much time kind of sifting through
[00:15:44] and trying to figure out who might be a good fit.
[00:15:46] And I found this woman who her name is Deepa.
[00:15:50] She's based out of New York.
[00:15:51] She runs her own kind of chemistry consulting company
[00:15:56] and we still work together to this day
[00:15:58] three and a half years later.
[00:16:00] She has been a phenomenal partner for me.
[00:16:02] And when we started working together,
[00:16:04] we hopped on a couple of calls
[00:16:06] and she was basically like,
[00:16:07] look, I'll charge you X amount.
[00:16:09] And I think at the time,
[00:16:10] I think my first invoice I paid her
[00:16:12] was like $3,000 or something like that.
[00:16:15] And she said,
[00:16:17] I will like tell me what you want in it
[00:16:20] and order the ingredients.
[00:16:23] So at that time, just because, you know,
[00:16:26] I was just trying to get her ingredients.
[00:16:28] I wasn't at that point focused on the quality
[00:16:31] of the ingredients as much.
[00:16:32] Some of them I ordered on Amazon.
[00:16:34] Some of them I ordered from, you know,
[00:16:35] other suppliers that I just found online
[00:16:38] and I shipped them to her.
[00:16:40] And we did a number of video calls back and forth
[00:16:43] and she kept sending me samples
[00:16:45] and we kept testing them
[00:16:47] until I felt like we got it right.
[00:16:48] And then she handed over,
[00:16:51] essentially our work together is that
[00:16:52] once she handed over the formulations to me
[00:16:54] that they were, I owned them.
[00:16:58] They were my proprietary formulas.
[00:17:00] And she basically taught me how to make them myself
[00:17:05] and how to make changes to them myself
[00:17:07] because when we did quote unquote finalized formulas
[00:17:12] initially, I've made several changes to them since.
[00:17:15] So I'm now able to kind of tweak those on my own
[00:17:19] and develop them and kind of make small batch stuff
[00:17:23] on my own, but I consult with her all the time.
[00:17:26] I highly, highly recommend honestly like my mantra
[00:17:31] and especially in the beginning of all of this
[00:17:33] but even now as we're kind of getting ready to launch
[00:17:36] is I highly recommend finding someone who's an expert
[00:17:41] in the things that you're not in.
[00:17:44] It's really gonna be a game changer.
[00:17:45] I would have been spinning my wheels for a long time
[00:17:48] had I tried to do all that stuff myself
[00:17:51] with the chemistry side of it.
[00:17:53] Well, I think there's a combination.
[00:17:54] I think that's amazing advice.
[00:17:55] And I think there's a combination of
[00:17:59] people need to recognize entrepreneurs need to recognize
[00:18:02] both where their strengths and weaknesses are
[00:18:04] and it's gonna cost some money.
[00:18:06] In this case, it surely didn't sound like a lot
[00:18:09] but that was probably the best $3,000 you'll ever spend
[00:18:14] not only because it saved you so much trial and error
[00:18:18] but it got you connected with someone
[00:18:20] who's gonna be so meaningful on this journey of yours.
[00:18:23] Right?
[00:18:24] 100% yes and she wasn't someone that I just hired.
[00:18:28] She's not a vendor, she's a true partner
[00:18:31] and that was really key is finding somebody
[00:18:33] that I felt like I could really trust
[00:18:34] and it was also really wonderful to find someone
[00:18:38] who really believed in the product
[00:18:39] and she got excited about it.
[00:18:40] She loves skincare too and she was eager to hop on a call
[00:18:44] and do this work with me.
[00:18:46] So yeah, it was definitely the best money I spent early on.
[00:18:50] I think there's an unbelievable,
[00:18:52] I mean you mentioned Upwork, there's other platforms too.
[00:18:55] There are unbelievable fractional resources available
[00:19:00] to dig in and really sort of surgically help solve
[00:19:06] so many of your challenges.
[00:19:08] I mean it's just, it's really like
[00:19:09] it's quite astounding who you can get actually
[00:19:12] and you see hundreds of thousands of responses.
[00:19:16] That's, yeah, that's amazing.
[00:19:17] I love the term surgically solve
[00:19:19] and that's exactly right.
[00:19:21] I couldn't have put it a better way myself, yeah.
[00:19:24] I'd started a business that I've subsequently sold
[00:19:26] but I remember on the journey of starting my business,
[00:19:30] there were these moments where
[00:19:32] it felt increasingly real, right?
[00:19:34] So whatever, naming the company sort of felt like a thing
[00:19:38] you now sort of could call it something
[00:19:40] other than just my thing I do in the evenings.
[00:19:43] Having branding and identity, I remember for me,
[00:19:46] this might sound old school but we had an office
[00:19:50] and I remember for me getting the key
[00:19:54] and sort of going into that office space
[00:19:56] for the first time felt like,
[00:19:58] oh, this is actually a thing.
[00:20:01] What along this journey were your moments
[00:20:05] where you sort of had the like,
[00:20:07] wow, this is happening?
[00:20:09] Was it that first formulation?
[00:20:11] Was it maybe giving me an us a sense of those moments
[00:20:15] where you were like, oh, this is real.
[00:20:17] Now I guess there was a moment where you decided
[00:20:21] it was real enough to quit your job
[00:20:23] because I assume you're doing this full time now.
[00:20:25] So maybe a couple of those little moments
[00:20:28] and then what was it that got you to the point
[00:20:30] where you're like, okay, I'm chips all in here.
[00:20:33] I'm leading my job.
[00:20:35] Yeah, oh yeah, ooh, it's been a journey.
[00:20:39] I will say, and we haven't even talked about
[00:20:41] kind of brand stuff but another person that I hired
[00:20:46] almost immediately was a brand developer
[00:20:49] and graphic designer.
[00:20:51] Her name is Becky.
[00:20:52] I still work with her to this day as well.
[00:20:54] She's amazing, also based out of New York
[00:20:57] and in the very early stages,
[00:21:00] I had told her the name I wanted
[00:21:02] and I sent her a mood board on Pinterest
[00:21:05] and I sent her a lot of kind of images
[00:21:07] of like what I thought emulated
[00:21:10] what I had in my idea of a brand really well
[00:21:13] and the first mock-ups she sent me
[00:21:16] really made it feel real.
[00:21:18] That was the first moment where I was like,
[00:21:19] whoa, this is on paper visually.
[00:21:22] This brand is starting to come to life.
[00:21:25] That was my first like, whoa, this is happening.
[00:21:28] Another one for me shortly after that
[00:21:30] was once I started making more of the formulation myself
[00:21:36] I started handing it out to friends and family
[00:21:38] and pretty much anybody who would be willing to take it
[00:21:41] and I got some phone calls and text messages back
[00:21:45] from some friends who basically said,
[00:21:48] I can't wait until you give me more of this.
[00:21:51] This is really cool and I don't know why this is so
[00:21:55] I'm gonna be like totally vulnerable
[00:21:57] and transparent here.
[00:21:59] When I started having people test it
[00:22:01] I thought that all of the feedback
[00:22:03] I was gonna get back initially
[00:22:04] was going to be all like negative
[00:22:06] and all recommendations for changes
[00:22:09] and I think a lot of that is just because
[00:22:12] it felt so like from scratch
[00:22:15] and that was actually now a lot of people did say,
[00:22:18] hey you could do this, this and this and this
[00:22:20] but it wasn't negative.
[00:22:22] The response was actually really positive
[00:22:23] and people keep asking for more.
[00:22:27] Well that could potentially come from a place
[00:22:29] of being a little bit self-protective
[00:22:31] kind of bracing yourself for some feedback
[00:22:35] but you were probably also in a place I imagine
[00:22:37] of being quite constantly curious about
[00:22:41] what changes need to be made
[00:22:43] and quite open to that too.
[00:22:45] Yes.
[00:22:45] So when you're deep into tinkering
[00:22:49] and you send it out,
[00:22:50] you expect more tinkering when it comes back
[00:22:54] but it must have been pretty thrilling
[00:22:55] to get those, the feedback of this is
[00:22:59] you're really, really onto something.
[00:23:01] Yes, that's exactly right
[00:23:02] but that's the exact phrasing
[00:23:03] that people started saying to me was
[00:23:05] you're onto something and I really think
[00:23:08] that people could use this
[00:23:10] and when you hear that validation from people
[00:23:13] especially early on when you've spent so much money
[00:23:16] and when you feel like the momentum is going
[00:23:18] and you're like, oh I don't know how
[00:23:20] I'm gonna make it stop at this point.
[00:23:21] Yeah.
[00:23:23] It's really nice validation, yeah.
[00:23:27] And so what does the competitor set look like?
[00:23:31] You mentioned some big retailers
[00:23:33] and outdoor retailers
[00:23:35] and so you've obviously been doing
[00:23:37] some sort of competitive research.
[00:23:39] I imagine you're not the very first brand
[00:23:42] out of the gate
[00:23:43] but what does the category look like
[00:23:45] and then who are you looking at
[00:23:47] as sort of I wanna be better than
[00:23:50] or bigger than X?
[00:23:52] It's a really good question.
[00:23:54] So there's kind of the clean
[00:23:57] and sustainable skincare space
[00:23:59] which to me feels way too broad.
[00:24:01] I don't feel like I'm a competitor
[00:24:03] with all of those companies.
[00:24:04] There are some companies out there
[00:24:05] that are doing some really cool things
[00:24:08] but the companies that I feel like
[00:24:11] are probably products,
[00:24:13] they sell products that a customer
[00:24:14] like mine would also buy
[00:24:16] are kind of smaller companies
[00:24:19] that are focused on two things concurrently.
[00:24:23] The first is the product cleanliness
[00:24:27] and making sure that the product itself,
[00:24:30] it does not have any chemicals
[00:24:32] and irritants and things like that.
[00:24:34] But then the second thing is the packaging.
[00:24:37] There are some companies out there
[00:24:38] that are doing really innovative things with packaging
[00:24:41] and it's the companies I think
[00:24:42] that are really kind of walking the walk
[00:24:43] and not just talking the talk.
[00:24:45] I can name a few that I think are doing cool things.
[00:24:48] There's a company called Mad Hippie.
[00:24:50] They make an awesome vitamin C serum
[00:24:52] but they have a really respectable list of ingredients.
[00:24:57] You really won't find anything
[00:25:00] that they include in any of their products
[00:25:01] that you can't name or that are unfamiliar
[00:25:04] and their products are really good quality,
[00:25:06] very effective, very reasonable price point
[00:25:09] but on top of all of that,
[00:25:10] their packaging is all glass,
[00:25:13] which I really like.
[00:25:14] So that's a big staple of mine
[00:25:16] in my at-home skincare routine.
[00:25:19] So it's really companies like that.
[00:25:20] There's another one, CocoKind.
[00:25:23] I actually think they're a Canadian company
[00:25:25] but they are doing this really cool thing
[00:25:27] where in addition to just making clean,
[00:25:31] I use the word clean and I feel silly saying clean
[00:25:34] because it feels very broad and kind of markety
[00:25:36] but I don't think we have a better word yet.
[00:25:41] So they make really wonderful products.
[00:25:44] I have a bunch of their stuff too
[00:25:46] and on their packaging, on the secondary box,
[00:25:49] so you buy a box of their product
[00:25:51] and the inside is like the glass jar or whatever
[00:25:53] but the secondary packaging on that box,
[00:25:56] they break down things like what their carbon emissions are
[00:26:00] at every step of their process.
[00:26:02] So like further manufacturing
[00:26:05] and this is what goes into our packaging
[00:26:07] and then this is what goes into the fulfillment
[00:26:10] and they really break it down for you
[00:26:12] and they're not saying like,
[00:26:13] oh we're 100% green and simple and amazing.
[00:26:16] They're like, this is what we do
[00:26:18] and this is what we put out
[00:26:19] and hope you like it.
[00:26:21] And it's companies like that
[00:26:22] that I think are tapping into a certain customer base
[00:26:27] of people who are actively seeking out things like that
[00:26:31] and it's the same people who,
[00:26:34] I'm one of those people where I stand in a store
[00:26:37] and I'm spending hours of my day reading labels
[00:26:39] and I probably look like a crazy person
[00:26:42] but it's people who are like actively seeking like,
[00:26:44] oh what is this company doing differently
[00:26:47] that's not only really good for my skin
[00:26:49] and good for me and it's effective
[00:26:52] but they're also paying attention
[00:26:54] to the sustainability aspect in the packaging piece.
[00:26:57] And doing so in a way it sounds like
[00:26:59] in that CocoKind example,
[00:27:00] doing in a way that is honest and transparent.
[00:27:03] Not we are going to tell a story about
[00:27:05] and in that story we're going to kind of hide
[00:27:08] all of the things that we're not doing phenomenally well.
[00:27:11] It's like this is where we're at
[00:27:12] and we hope that next year our packaging
[00:27:16] will have a lower carbon number
[00:27:18] but this is where we are right now
[00:27:20] and which is really important.
[00:27:22] Where did you end appreciating this as an audio medium
[00:27:25] so all the listeners have to close their eyes
[00:27:28] and imagine the packaging.
[00:27:29] Where did you end up with in your packaging journey?
[00:27:32] Oh my gosh, it's so many variations.
[00:27:35] So where we ended up is we,
[00:27:37] our powder face cleansers come in paper tubes
[00:27:41] that are basically shakers.
[00:27:43] So there's a cap on the inside
[00:27:46] that has three small holes in it
[00:27:47] and you shake the powder out into your hand
[00:27:50] essentially the way that you would
[00:27:51] like a salt shaker or something.
[00:27:53] Our paper, I'm partnering with a company.
[00:27:56] I did a lot of research to make sure
[00:27:59] that I partner with a company
[00:28:00] that I felt was doing paper in the right way.
[00:28:03] A lot of folks out there might say
[00:28:05] that using paper is not a sustainable choice
[00:28:08] but I made sure that I was working with a company
[00:28:10] that was FSC certified
[00:28:12] and I knew what I really wanted to do
[00:28:15] was drill down on not making the packaging just plastic
[00:28:20] but it's post consumer plastic
[00:28:22] or making it aluminum or whatever.
[00:28:24] I really wanted to make something
[00:28:26] where the end product could fully break down on its own.
[00:28:29] After all, like backpackers,
[00:28:31] you need something super lightweight and simple
[00:28:33] but also you need to not feel bad
[00:28:35] if you accidentally drop it along the way
[00:28:37] and don't realize it.
[00:28:39] So I wanted something, I wanted to take a leap
[00:28:43] and I wanted to create
[00:28:44] a fully biodegradable packaging solution.
[00:28:47] So it's not like it's not plastic lined?
[00:28:50] No, not at all, no.
[00:28:51] It's not plastic lined at all.
[00:28:53] So that presents its own challenges too.
[00:28:55] I went through so many variations.
[00:28:57] One of my ideas, there are a few companies out there
[00:28:59] that make powder cleansers or exfoliators
[00:29:04] and they sell them in individual packets.
[00:29:06] We actually pursued that direction for a very long time
[00:29:10] and I chose to abandon it at a certain point
[00:29:13] when I started getting feedback that it felt wasteful
[00:29:16] in the sense that sure,
[00:29:18] you're just using one single use at a time with a packet
[00:29:21] but then you're buying a bunch of packets
[00:29:22] and then you have to put the packet in a box
[00:29:23] and all that stuff.
[00:29:25] So I abandoned that for that reason.
[00:29:28] Maybe we'll come back to a concept like that
[00:29:30] at some point, never say never.
[00:29:32] And I explored all different kinds of things
[00:29:34] like packing the powder into small pellets
[00:29:38] and then being able to present it
[00:29:42] in a tin can, kind of like an Altoid can or something.
[00:29:45] We're still exploring ideas of how we can maybe
[00:29:48] do aluminum packaging at some point.
[00:29:51] But we went with the paper initially for our launch.
[00:29:55] I'm really proud of it and I'm excited about it
[00:29:57] because of that biodegradability component
[00:29:59] and also because of the lightweight component.
[00:30:04] So much of our brand is around fitting
[00:30:07] into your active on-the-go lifestyle
[00:30:10] and really trying to mold a product
[00:30:13] of making it as easy and convenient for you.
[00:30:17] I imagine that pellets or the individual packages
[00:30:20] would help with, there you go,
[00:30:22] like volume or how much of the product to use, right?
[00:30:26] Yeah.
[00:30:28] Because they would be sort of already
[00:30:30] kind of the volume of product
[00:30:32] were already selected.
[00:30:34] So I imagine that's either instructions
[00:30:36] or sort of something along the lines.
[00:30:38] Because it's not a,
[00:30:40] I'm not a huge consumer in the category admittedly.
[00:30:43] But-
[00:30:44] You will be for a long time.
[00:30:45] I can't wait.
[00:30:48] But I imagine that there's a bit of consumer education
[00:30:51] just even around kind of how to use the product, right?
[00:30:55] Yes, 100%.
[00:30:57] I love that you asked this question
[00:30:58] because something that I've spent more time on
[00:31:01] than I ever anticipated was writing the copy
[00:31:04] for my directions that we were gonna print
[00:31:07] on the packaging.
[00:31:08] I went through so many different variations of that.
[00:31:12] I had a bunch of different people test it
[00:31:13] and tell me like what they thought
[00:31:15] the direction should be.
[00:31:16] And then I recorded videos of myself doing it
[00:31:19] and just trying to come up with that language
[00:31:21] that was the most helpful.
[00:31:22] And there was something that I discovered
[00:31:25] in the process of doing that,
[00:31:26] which is when it's a loose powder form,
[00:31:29] it becomes a little bit more personalized
[00:31:30] and customizable.
[00:31:32] So you can really use as much or as little
[00:31:34] as you want depending on what you're trying to achieve.
[00:31:38] If you add less water to our product,
[00:31:40] it's more of kind of like a creamy foamy paste.
[00:31:42] If you add more water to the product,
[00:31:45] it's much more of kind of like a soapy watery
[00:31:48] like what you would feel is like a traditional soap.
[00:31:51] We don't have any soap.
[00:31:52] There's no actual soap in our products
[00:31:54] but we do have a surfactant
[00:31:55] that kind of bubbles up similar
[00:31:57] to a soap that's made from coconut.
[00:31:59] And both of those experiences
[00:32:01] being the slightly more creamy or the more foamy,
[00:32:03] they are equally efficacious.
[00:32:06] Isn't it fascinating?
[00:32:09] I've had some experiences where,
[00:32:12] we've done some packaging design for clients in the past
[00:32:15] and you write instructional copy
[00:32:19] that you think is so clear
[00:32:22] and then you watch someone try to follow
[00:32:24] what you think are your very clear instructions.
[00:32:27] It's just, it's fascinating where you're like,
[00:32:29] how did they interpret it like that?
[00:32:33] I know what you mean around,
[00:32:35] I guess I'm gonna have to tweak the instructions
[00:32:38] because yeah.
[00:32:39] Yes, I can totally relate, yeah.
[00:32:41] So this is maybe a bit tangential
[00:32:44] but is there like,
[00:32:46] is there a regulatory body
[00:32:48] that you have to go through the FDA
[00:32:49] or how is the product classified
[00:32:53] and regulated if at all?
[00:32:54] That's a good question.
[00:32:55] So my first response to that without getting political
[00:32:59] is that I wish there was more regulations than there are.
[00:33:02] I was shocked in the beginning of all of this
[00:33:04] to learn that very little of it is regulated
[00:33:07] but I really tried to kind of grasp
[00:33:08] onto as much regulation as possible
[00:33:10] and I'm actually speaking specifically to the US.
[00:33:13] I don't know how it is elsewhere.
[00:33:15] So specifically to the US, not a lot.
[00:33:18] So one thing that kind of sent me on a path
[00:33:23] of certain rules and regulations I needed to follow
[00:33:26] is that I knew we were categorized as a cosmetics company.
[00:33:30] So that was really easy to kind of look up,
[00:33:32] okay, FDA regulations for cosmetics.
[00:33:35] Most of the regulations from what I've learned
[00:33:38] and I'm learning all of this still,
[00:33:40] it's always a work in progress
[00:33:42] and I'm always curious
[00:33:43] and you wanna make sure you do it right
[00:33:45] before it goes onto the marketplaces.
[00:33:48] The most important thing is that your packaging is right.
[00:33:51] The actual information on your packaging
[00:33:53] has to be in a certain way.
[00:33:54] You have to include certain things.
[00:33:56] Other things are optional
[00:33:58] and as long as you're transparent about the ingredients
[00:34:00] that are in your product,
[00:34:02] that's really the most important thing
[00:34:04] and for example, if we put SPF in any of our products
[00:34:10] which I would love to do an SPF one day,
[00:34:13] it's like my dream.
[00:34:14] We could do a whole other episode on my obsession
[00:34:16] with SPF.
[00:34:17] Well, you're welcome back.
[00:34:18] When SPF gets launched, you're coming back.
[00:34:20] Thank you.
[00:34:21] If we were to do an SPF to my understanding,
[00:34:23] it would be considered a drug rather than a cosmetic
[00:34:26] and that's a whole other category of regulations
[00:34:28] that you have to follow.
[00:34:29] So, but yeah, a lot of this was just again,
[00:34:33] like going to the internet and figuring it out.
[00:34:36] This has been just absolutely fascinating
[00:34:38] and I cannot wait for the product to launch
[00:34:40] and looking forward,
[00:34:44] maybe talk to me a bit about manufacturing.
[00:34:45] Are you, are the early plans,
[00:34:48] is it sort of small batch in the basement
[00:34:50] kind of situation?
[00:34:51] Do you have an outsourced manufacturing partner?
[00:34:54] What do the different levels of scale look like?
[00:34:57] Is there a point at which you sort of go,
[00:35:00] okay, I need to move to phase two.
[00:35:03] Help me understand that a bit.
[00:35:05] We're more or less functioning out of a basement.
[00:35:08] It's basically, I have an office in Annapolis
[00:35:11] and it's all confined into one room in this office.
[00:35:14] We're very small batch.
[00:35:16] I'm still operating from a scale up bench right now
[00:35:19] that I built with my chemist,
[00:35:21] which is essentially what chemists use
[00:35:23] for creating small batch things.
[00:35:25] So right now we make small batches
[00:35:29] and then our plan is to kind of stuff the packaging upon
[00:35:33] like when someone places an order
[00:35:35] and then ship it from there.
[00:35:38] We do not work with any outside manufacturers
[00:35:41] right now for the product.
[00:35:43] The only outside vendors we are working with right now
[00:35:46] is our packaging partner who's developing.
[00:35:50] They create the paper tubes for us
[00:35:52] based on the exact specifications that I want
[00:35:55] and then all of the branding is all custom
[00:35:58] and printed on there with soy ink.
[00:36:01] Oh wow.
[00:36:01] And then they ship all of that to me
[00:36:05] and then I fill the product myself.
[00:36:07] I make the product myself
[00:36:09] and when I say myself, I literally mean just me
[00:36:12] and it's very small batch.
[00:36:15] There's actually a phenomenal amount of consistency
[00:36:17] considering it's just me making it
[00:36:19] because I feel like I've really gotten it down to a science.
[00:36:21] So then I make it, I package it, I fill it
[00:36:25] and then we actually,
[00:36:28] I found this company that makes
[00:36:30] at home compostable shipping containers
[00:36:33] like small retail shipping containers.
[00:36:36] So when we go to market, we're gonna try that.
[00:36:38] I will totally let you know how it goes
[00:36:41] and yeah those are just gonna be shipped
[00:36:43] as one off, as the orders come in.
[00:36:45] We're starting e-commerce at first
[00:36:47] and then I have an idea of what we'll need to do
[00:36:51] to scale absolutely the first thing I would like to do
[00:36:55] is to outsource the manufacturing component.
[00:36:58] So I'm already kind of looking
[00:37:00] at what that looks like from a cost standpoint
[00:37:02] and also what that looks like
[00:37:04] in terms of how much like their minimum order quantities.
[00:37:08] That's a huge, huge challenge that I've run into
[00:37:12] and for anybody listening,
[00:37:14] if you're at the same stage that I am in,
[00:37:17] that it's really hard to find any type of manufacturer
[00:37:19] or partner that has the type of minimum order quantities
[00:37:22] that don't totally bankrupt you.
[00:37:25] And I was lucky enough to find a packaging partner
[00:37:28] that they were willing to actually produce
[00:37:33] three different SKUs for me, a thousand of each SKU
[00:37:37] and their minimum was 3000.
[00:37:39] They actually did me a solid
[00:37:40] and typically their minimum is 3000 of one SKU
[00:37:44] and they allowed me to do 1000 of three SKUs.
[00:37:48] So it's a lot of like really making sure
[00:37:51] that it makes sense for us financially too
[00:37:53] and once it does,
[00:37:55] that's probably when we will start exploring
[00:37:58] outside funding.
[00:38:00] Where can people go and find the product?
[00:38:04] Yeah, so we're online at wildthingskincare.com
[00:38:08] and you can also follow us on Instagram
[00:38:11] at wildthingskincareco.
[00:38:14] Britta, this has been an absolute pleasure.
[00:38:17] I wish you all the best.
[00:38:18] Clearly there's so much passion behind this
[00:38:21] and I think you've nailed a sweet spot in the market.
[00:38:24] So it's amazing.
[00:38:25] Neil, thank you for having me.
[00:38:26] This has been really awesome.
[00:38:27] I really appreciate it.
[00:38:31] The Innovation Day podcast is brought to you
[00:38:33] by Studio 245.
[00:38:35] It's hosted by Neil Follett
[00:38:37] and produced by me, Darrell Webster with Chess Originals.
[00:38:41] If you have any feedback, comments
[00:38:42] or an idea for a guest,
[00:38:44] you can reach us at neil at innovationday.ca.